dl archive goes online

A Discussion List Archive | Jerry Talandis Jr. | September 14th, 2003

Hello everyone,

This is Jerry Talandis, from Japan. I've been working on making an archive of

discussions from this list, and I'm happy to announce that its ready for public viewing. You can access the site here.

I'd like to start a discussion about it. Here are some questions to get us started:

1. These days most CPs don't use the discussion list, but through the years, thousands of messages have been sent to it (making for a huge underutilized batch of data). Given that almost no one uses this list anymore, is an archive even necessary? Why or why not?

2. Any comments on the design/layout/navigation of the site? Is there a better way to present this data?

3. What would you like to see happen with this site in the future?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing from the Aston community about this project.

Thanks,

Jerry

Re: A Discussion List Archive | Raymond Sheehan | September 15th, 2002

Hi, Jerry,

I've just had a very pleasant time browsing through the archives! It's a wonderful addition. As regards your second question, I found the site very user-friendly, given the drop-down menu.

About your first question, I think the value of such a site has nothing to do with numbers of users. It provides a further point of contact for those of us who are doing a distance learning course in relative isolation- in that we can tap into the thinking of those who have gone before and encountered similar problems. Even if a very small number of people draw some benefit from the site, it will have been well worth it.

Often, the benefit may have less to do with what information there is on the list and more to do with affective factors- it may have more to do with hanging on in there, persevering despite the distance-learning difficulties because we can see how other CPs have worked things out. The future of the site? Maybe one way to see it grow would be to hand over ownership of it to a future CP or a dedicated group of future CPs who may choose to take it in new directions, add a word-search facility to it for example ...  

By the way, I was a bit disappointed not to read anything about dissertations on the site. Since it's the one thing we all have/will have in common, it's surprising that dissertations issues have never been covered. Is it because at dissertation stage, we all just take off in our own separate directions and the common factors of dissertation writing are irrelevant?

Raymond
UAE

Re: Discussion List Archive | Joe Alvaro | September 15th, 2003

Dear Jerry,

I think this website is extremely useful and practical.

Participants who are new to a module will find it a great help in orientation and getting down to finer points that others who have gone before may have encountered.

Since being on the list only since March this year, I was concerned about how I could make use of all the messages & notes that have been flying around. I have read some very significant things and thought that is would be a shame to not have some system to make permanent use of the mailing list.

I for one, am thankful that you have taken time to categorise things by module. Bravo.

Best regards,

Joe Alvaro
China

Discussion List Archive | Tisa Retfalvi-Schar | September 15th, 2003

Dear Jerry,

Your website is great! I received it this morning and it made for stimulating reading- I'm in the midst of completing the FND module and I found the sections on the portfolio tasks extremely useful.

The archive is a good place for me (and others like me) to read about former CPs' queries and frustrations. It will probably inspire some new CPs to start writing to the discussion list, too.

Here's hoping that your efforts will help revive the list!

Bye for now,

Tisa
Switzerland

Re: A Discussion List Archive | Lori Solbakken | September 15th, 2003

Hi Jerry,

Great job! I bet that took you a while to do, eh? It's very neat, easy to navigate, and clear.

Some questions:

1. Is it possible for us to reply to any of the discussions currently archived? Would this feature be available in the future or do you not see a need for this, or are there software limitations for adding such a function?

2. What about future discussions? Will you continue to input the data into archives? For how long?

3. Did you get permission from those contributors to archive their emails? Was that a lengthy process if so? I remember there being some questionof ownership and permission from my own DE project early this year.

4. This seems like a very detailed project for a ten credit DE assignment, so are you taking it to dissertation stage? Don't mean to be nosy!

Best of luck and thanks for all your hard work. I'm sure it will come in handy for many of us on the MSc.

Regards,

Lori
Taiwan

Jerry's Archive | David Heywood | September 15th, 2003

Jerry,

I just want to say that the website is excellent. I very quickly found a number of exchanges that were of interest- that in itself is extremely praiseworthy. It is clear and easy to use. It's also an insight into how useful the list can be, I wonder why it's not used much anymore.

Many thanks!

David

Re: A Discussion List Archive | Mike McDonald | September 15th, 2003

Great site, Jerry! You have done many people a great service, and I think a significant number of CPs will use it if its existence becomes known. I certainly intend to visit from time to time.

Thanks for your hard work.

Mike McDonald

Re: A Discussion List Archive | Jenny de Sonneville | September 15th, 2003

Hi Jerry

I am really impressed with your archive of discussions... especially as I think it is very practical and you can see already from the replies that people find it so useful.

It would be great for participants starting new modules to read through the discussions before they start. I guess it is almost an example of scaffolding in that creating this kind of framework makes it more accessible for study?

Last weekend I attended an IATEFL TTEd conference at the University of East London on "Exploring Interaction in teacher learning," there was   a talk by Amos Paran on Computer Mediated Communication on Post Graduate Distance Courses where he was quite negative about discussion lists, since the discussion list at the University of Reading died completely! Your efforts have shown how a discussion list of this kind can offer not only interpersonal, but also course content support! On behalf of us all, a big thank you!

I think the question: are you intending to continue, or who will continue it, is an important one.

And by the way I too think this could be a great DISS.

Jenny

PS Could I just mention that last weekend I met Nicky Hockly and Gavin Dudeney at the conference. They are experts on the role of chat in online teacher training. They offer many different types of courses, including courses for online teacher trainers - so for anyone thinking of online teacher training, their emails are nicky@dudeney.com and gavin@dudeney.com. They are not only experts in their field, but they are human and approachable...and Amos Paran is in their class this month so maybe he will get some tips to make his online interaction more successful!

Discussion-list archive | Steve Mann | September 15th, 2003

Hi all,

Congratulations to Jerry from the staff at LSU. I hope you've begun something here that will undoubtedly provide a great resources but also revitalise the discussion list.

So Reading's died, did it! (Thanks Jenny). Can't resist a little smile. There have been quiet times with ours but the exchanges over the years have been stimulating and interesting. I agree with Raymond that quantity isn't everything. Tom Bloor said to me once that he thought the discussion list was the best thing about the MSc and I agree. The quality of the thinking, advice from participants and support has always kept it going. Jerry has highlighted some of this excellent interaction.

If anyone else wants to do some analysis or work with the discussion list, it is a form of interaction after all, I am sure it could be used as a data-resource in many different ways. Jerry could be the first of other attempts to make use of this resource. It is possible to capture all the previous messages. It just takes a great deal of work to put them into coherent strings.

All the best

Steve

Re: A Discussion List Archive | Sarah Haas | September 15th, 2003

Amazing, Jerry! Wish you had started a few years ealier so I could have used this for all my modules. Great work.

Sarah Haas
Japan

Re: DL Archive | Jerry Talandis Jr. | September 16th, 2003

Hello everyone,

Thanks for your positive responses to the DL archive site. I was very relieved to read them. I was afraid that no one would care, but I see that is not the case. As a result, I'm excited to take this project further as part of my dissertation.

I'd like to respond to some of your comments here.

Joe wrote:

Participants who are new to a module will find it a great help in orientation and getting down to finer points that others who have gone before may have encountered.

Since being on the list only since March this year, I was concerned about how I could make use of all the messages & notes that have been flying around. I have read some very significant things and thought that is would be a shame to not have some system to make permanent use of the mailing list.

Well, this was nice to read. I was thinking about new CPs primarily when designing the site. I think there are a lot of people who may lack confidence in their ability to articulate their ideas at the masters level when starting out. Seeing what others have to say can really help "orient" one, as Joe said. Many of the threads in the "General Topics" category are perfect reading for newbies, as are most of the FND entries. Like Jenny says, reading these threads is like a kind of scaffolding. But, the site is not only useful for new CPs. The archive can also help in the process of deciding which module to do next. There are a few discussions about choosing course pathways, for instance. In addition, reading discussions from CPs heavy into a module can give one a sense of what it could be like to be studying it. For example, after reading some of the GE discussions, I know I'd never last a week in that course! J Tisa wrote:

It (the DL) will probably inspire some new CPs to start writing to the discussion list, too. Here's hoping that your efforts will help revive the list!

Well, this was (and is) a secret hope of mine, but we shall see. I think one effect of reading lots of discussions is the loss of fear about contributing. You can see some really amazing, technically advanced pieces of writing, but there are other entries written in common language that are no less stimulating. The underlying message is that everyone can contribute, and the more the merrier. Lori wrote:

I bet that took you a while to do, eh?

Yes, it did! At first I was going to do an assignment about what it would entail to produce an archive. Then Steve suggested I make a website. That got me going on this long held dream of being able to make one. I've always wanted to do it but was afraid of learning HTML. Well, after I got myself Dreamweaver MX (thanks to Lori and Phil Q for the recommendation)I just decided to make the darn thing instead of talking about making it. After I put out some requests for data, I got inundated with it, so in the end the entire process snowballed into more work than a 10 credit course called for. "In for a penny, in for a pound." About Lori's questions:

1. Is it possible for us to reply to any of the discussions currently archived? Would this feature be available in the future or do you not see a need for this, or are there software limitations for adding such a function?

This was a feature that I initially wanted to build into the site, but I didn't know how. My original idea was to set up a discussion board (like Phil Quirke's), then copy and paste the data into it. That would allow the ability to instantly respond to past discussions, thus giving them new life. As it turned out, I wasn't able to set a board up, so I made a simple, static website. To encourage further discussion, I've placed links to Phil's forum in the Feedback and Links pages. We should be using these already established resources more, anyway. If people think turning the archive into an elaborate discussion board would be better, I'm up for changing, but I'd need help doing that.

2.What about future discussions? Will you continue to input the datainto archives? For how long?

Given the good response, yes, I'm willing to keep things up until I graduate (two more years, it looks like). But, it takes a lot of time to sort through tangled webs of data, not to mention edit and format threads. I have now about 20 more threads ready for formatting that I could get up in the next few weeks, but after that, I'd need help doing it. In addition, I need to get moving with other modules (I've fallen behind my pace), so after I get this last bunch of data up, I may have to take a break for a while. But, once I confirm my diss plans, I will have more incentive to get back into it. If anyone is interested in helping me gather/sort data, please contact me.

3. Did you get permission from those contributors to archive their emails? Was that a lengthy process if so? I remember there being some question of ownership and permission from my own DE project early this year.

Opps. I never bothered to seek permission from anyone because I just assumed that given the nature of the project, no one would mind. I figured that once someone sends an email out into the world, it became a matter of public record. Am I wrong about this? Gosh, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone by not checking with them first. So, if anyone has any problems, please get in touch with me, and I can delete your message or remove your name.

4. This seems like a very detailed project for a ten credit DE assignment, so are you taking it to dissertation stage? Don't mean to be nosy!

Yes, it looks that way. Keith and Steve have given me some good ideas and I'm thinking them over.

Finally, Sarah writes:

Wish you had started a few years earlier so I could have used this for all my modules.

How would you have used this resource, Sarah? Can you imagine how things would have been different? If I end up doing a diss on this subject, this is probably what I'd look at: how do new CPs make use of the DL?

Thanks again for everyone's input. Remember- it's OUR project, so the more we work together, the better it will be for everyone.

Jerry

Re: A Discussion List Archive | Jenny in Cyprus | September 16th, 2003

Hi,

I think this is a great site & wish it had been there for my FND when I had great doubts about my abilities to understand some of the stuff let alone write about it in an acceptable academic format.

Good work Jerry. Thanks.

Jenny in Cyprus

Current lex on collocation | Maria Leedham | September 16th, 2003

Hi all,

Anyone thinking about collocation currently? I'm looking at how NNSs complete the lexical cloze part of Cambridge CAE use of English paper.

Jerry's archive was great as it had lots of useful links on this.

Thanks!

Maria Leedham
Oxford, UK

Future and the past | Gerry Munzing | September 16th, 2003

Hello all,

Well, here goes my first post. My name is Gerry (real name is Gerald so that's why it's with a G) Munzing. Originally I'm from California, but now I live in Fukuoka, Japan. Before Japan (way back when), I spent two years in Paris, France as a exchange student.  

I only subscribed to the discussion list earlier this month and I was wondering how people used this resource, as there didn't seem to be much activity recently. But then suddenly things have exploded with the archive. Quite an amazing project there, Jerry with a J. Very impressive, especially after going through some of the posts, I realized that you started out essentially where I am now, not having any experience with such an undertaking. But now you've created a substantial piece of work that is extremely beneficial to so many of us. Thank you for your time and persistence!

As for the future, it would be fantastic if either the archive became its own discussion board or if more people contributed to the board already in place at Phil Quirke's site. I really believe the idea of having such a resource is critical to expanding the communication base of all CPs.

That's my two cents and I look forward to seeing where things go from here.

Gerry Munzing

MSc List Archive & TD | Stephan Hegglin | September 17th, 2003

Hello everyone,

Thank you Jerry for you great work. It is very convenient to go through the archive.

Regarding your question about the CPs who don't use the discussion list, I would like to disagree. I read all the messages and doubt whether readers and lurkers can be called non-users. I don't want to revive this question again (there is much about this in the archive). But what I do want to stress is that there are times where I keep reading the messages making notes of interesting comments and advices.

I remember Rita Balbi recommending her favourite MAP-title. I ordered it and got it about three weeks ago. I know, I should have gone back to the list and told all the others that 'Materials Development in Language Teaching' is really worthwhile reading. This would be stimulating for others working in the field.

Thank you Jenny for taking up a personal perspective. I'm still convinced that the Aston approach stands out among other courses because of its emphasis on Teacher Development. There is so much talk about professionalism and scientific progress that seem so empty if they are not linked to our personal experience. When I think about why I did not give up Aston than it was only for this reason. I tackled every assignment from a personal interest, perspective, or experience. Life seems too short to get only involved into accumulating knowledge.

It might be interesting to know why some of you have not given up despite the workload.

All the best,

Stephan
Switzerland

DL Archive Q & A | Jerry Talandis Jr. | September 18th, 2003

Hello everyone,

Just wanted to say again "thank you" for all the positive and helpful feedback on the DL Archive. I'm really glad to see that CPs value the DL and are taking an interest in having a place to read past discussions.

I've gotten some comments & questions off the list that I thought I'd respond to on-list. What follows it a kind of DL Archive "FAQ" (hey, now wouldn't that make a nice addition to the site!).

I suffer from computer phobia but nevertheless found the site very, very simple to use. That was the most important thing because I felt encouraged to use my computer to enter discussions, or at least to revisit the site and read some more.

Well, this comment makes me happy because that's exactly what I was trying to do: make the site easily accessible by anyone, no matter their computer skill level or equipment. There are no fancy graphics or effects, and the site loads easily on old and new computers alike.

Great to have it organized by module and then by topic within the module.   This seemed like the most logical choice, given the way the program is set up. But, the threads that didn't quite fit into a module were dumped into the "general topics" category, which has already gotten very long. Look for this category to be subdivided in the future. Also great to have a 'search' as I typed in a specific topic and found that there was something in TDA about it as well as GE where I originally looked.

Yes, this is a nice feature. It provides an alternate route to finding information. Sometimes you remember some idea from some discussion long ago, but you can't quite place when. Just type in the key words, and presto! You're there, with additional information, too. This search engine is a free service from atomz.com as long as the site stays under 500 pages. We're at about 100 right now...

Now all that is needed are more people contributing so that a wider range of topics are presented--that is up to participants, of course, and not to you.

Yes! I'm hoping that having an archive will encourage more use of the DL (and of Phil's ESL Support forum, to which I've added a link in the "Links" section)

Some questions. Is this site a record of discussions from another site--like an archive of previous discussions--or is it meant to be an actual forum for discussion? What I mean is that if one is motivated by the site to enter into new or ongoing discussions, how does one do so?

It was my original intension to create an archive that people could add to on the spot (i.e. a "discussion board"). Since setting up such a site was beyond my ability, I decided just to make a static website. So, to answer your question: this site is just a public resting place for past DL discussions. You can't add to them. If you feel inspired to say something more on a topic, you have two choices:

1. Start a new thread on the DL. In the introduction to your message, you can include the link to the archived discussion you are referring to. This way people can easily read the discussion you are adding your thoughts to. (I've provided an example of this with the current DL discussion topic entitled "sharing assignments". A CP made a comment about how nice it would be if we could share assignments more, in my response I provided a link to an old discussion about the topic, then I added my two cents)

2. Start a new thread at Phil's ESL Support forum. This is a great resource that is currently in need of more traffic. I will shortly be adding a link to this site at the end of each archived thread to encourage further discussion on each topic. For example, if you feel inspired to add to something you've read in the archive, just click on the "Continue This Discussion" link at the end of the thread [this feature coming soon]. You will magically be transported to Phil's ESL Support forum where you can start a new thread (very easy to do, if you haven't done so before).

So, you can see that with the current DL and Phil's forum, there are two already-in-place ways to continue building on previous discussions. Instead of creating something new that takes away from the resources we already have, I decided it would be better to harmonize what I'm doing with them.

Will participants actually maintain this site for use, or is it just an experiment or prototype for something to come? Who would maintain, sort and edit (if necessary) for the site?

Excellent questions! I'm thinking a lot about these at the moment. I haven't decided anything final yet, but here's what I do know:

I'm willing to maintain and update this site for as long as I'm with the program (probably two more years at rate I'm going). I would like some help with it, however. I work best when part of a team, and I think a "DL Archive Management Group" could do a lot more than just me. But, I also understand CPs are busy and may not have time or interest for this. So, as it stands, I'm planning on doing one more big update to the site then give it a rest for a while. I was sent a lot of data, and I want to process all that I have. I'm about 80% of the way there.   So, another week or so of hard work and everything should be in a good place.

In the next update I'll be incorporating some of the suggestions I've gotten:

Eventually some questions will need to be addressed: where will the permanent home of the archive be? I can't keep it on my personal ISP forever. Also: who will take it over when I'm done? Who knows? That question will become clear with time.

Is it possible that discussions get so long or so numerous as to make it hard to sort though for both the editor and users?

I don't think so. With good design you can address these problems. It took me a long time to figure out how to do everything, but now I have this system for processing/formatting data in a reasonable amount of time. The organization and layout of the site are also designed to remain user-friendly regardless of the amounts of data. For example, you'll notice frequent "Return to Top" links through out each thread. Use these and you don't have to spend so much time scrolling through long discussions. Also notice that discussions are listed alphabetically, again, to aid in the search for information. Finally, as I mentioned, the word search engine compliments everything. In fact, as the site increases in size, the more important and useful the search engine becomes. To sum up, the design choices I made took into account a site with lots of data.

What really takes time is processing raw data. If you download a month's worth of original messages, you have to do a lot of sorting, cutting, pasting, and editing. If I save individual threads as they happen on the DL at my Yahoo mailbox, I still have to reformat & edit them. It's all a lot of busy work. Here is where a teamwork approach could really help. People could work together to do all this, and a lot more threads could be posted in a lot less time. Everyone would benefit.

That's all for now. Please keep the questions and comments coming.

Jerry

Progress with web site | Steve Mann | September 19th, 2003

Hi all,

I've 'gone off,' Jerry with a J.

Fancy quoting one of my vague hopes for the future! Jan 2002 sounds like a lifetime ago. I was doing my PhD then. That's my excuse.

I remember that around that time we decided to experiment with an on-line module (Computational Linguistics). Not many people have taken this single module and it may well be combined with Lexical Studies in the future.

We also decided to try Blackboard (a VLE) and got round to that some time later. In fact, Jerry was part of this group and I think we did manage to generate more interaction and momentum. Jerry's idea grew out of this DE module. There were several other excellent projects too.

As far as the assignment issue is concerned, I have already e-mailed Keith to ask him whether the university would have any objections.

I am painfully aware that after Peter retired progress on updating the web-site has been slow.

I'm currently bidding for some funding that will free up some more of my time as I want to make more progress with web support, CD-Rom possibilities and also try Web_CT which is an alternative to Blackboard which some of us have used already. It has more flexibility, apparently. This funding might also help and add to Phil Quirke and Jerry's work.

That's all for now.

Best

Steve

Re: MET Study Group | Jerry Talandis Jr. | September 23rd, 2003

Dear Laura and other MET Study Group memebers,

Thanks a lot for posting all of your group interactions to this list. I think it's a smart move. I'll be right on top of it, gathering it all for the DL Archive. You wrote:

Our idea is that these exchanges might be useful to future CPs working through MET who don't have the opportunity to share their ideas on the tasks with others. Obviously we welcome the contribution of all other CPs who would like to add their two cents.

This is exactly the sort of participation I was hoping the DL Archive would encourage. It may be more stress to know that all of your musings will be preserved for the future, but in exchange, your work will continue helping others long after you have all graduated. This is the hope and vision, anyway. Each study group is unique, adding their own distinctiveness to what has been done before.

But, wree you arwae taht txet is sltil cmorpenhebisle wehn at lsaet the fsrit and lsat lertets mniatian teihr ogirainl positions? So, I'm going to stop worrying about typos or misspellings or slips of the tongue (finger?) etc. and just contribute!

Funny, but I just got today a mass mailing from a friend that made this exact point.... did you get the same message, perhaps? Anyway, the point is you get the point. Contribute as much as you can, not only for yourself, and don't worry about spelling and other errors; I'll be able to clean those up easily enough in Word before posting the messages to the archive.

Thanks!

Jerry

PS: I'll be updating the archive soon. There will be a number of MET threads posted.

 

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