dl impact

DL Impact | Jerry Talandis Jr. | September 6th, 2004

Hi Karen, (and everyone)

This discussion list and your website have provided me with ideas and support over the three years I've been a CP but I find it very hard to actually contribute. Lack of confidence more than anything, plus limited time to e-mail.

May I ask you how the discussion list (DL) has helped? You may not have been an active contributor often, but you still read stuff, right? How useful is it just observing what goes on? And the DL Archive website- How does having access to our community's discourse history affect your educational experience? In other words, how have you used it, and how has access to past discussions influenced your current studies?

I'd be very interested to find out your perspectives on these questions. Anyone else, feel free to chime in! This is the sort of discussion that would really help me get a handle on my diss.

Jerry

Re: DL Impact | Maria Leedham | September 6th, 2004

Hi All,

Having a list has helped me enormously. I'm a sporadic contributor but an avid reader! Even if I don't chip in to a discussion it's great to know that there's a community of us. When I've asked a question / made a comment I always get responses.

Without the list I think I'd have felt isolated. I have colleagues I can talk to, but they're not doing my course, right now so it's not reciprocal in the same way.

Jerry - I've looked through the list archive to search for leads on assignment topics. Interesting how the same things cycle round. And often there are references to books / articles / ideas I hadn't been aware of.   Definitely worth doing in the research stage of assignment. So thanks!

Maria

Using the list & archive | Karen | September 10th, 2004

Hello again,

Thanks to everyone who responded to my last e-mail regarding finding a dissertation topic and sorry for not responding sooner.

That's one of my problems with the list Jerry by the way, I often don't have the time to contribute, or by the time I do the discussion has moved on or stopped and my contribution no longer seems relevant.

Like Maria, I find the list has helped me to feel part of a community and therefore less isolated, although when it goes dead I can feel very cut off. I enjoy reading about what other people are researching, or doing in their classrooms, and how they're coping with the pressures of study on top of work and everyday life in distant places. When I have plucked up the nerve to ask a question people have responded generously. I suspect that a lot of discussions continue off the list.

Also like Maria I've used the archive to search for leads, to look up references that I read online but didn't keep, and to get ideas.

That's all from me, have a good weekend folks,

Karen

Re: DL Impact | Jerry Talandis Jr. | September 12th, 2004

Hi Maria, Karen, and anyone else reading this thread,

Thanks for responding to my questions about the impact of this discussion list (DL) and discussion list archive (DLA). You've made some good points that I'm sure will see light of day in my dissertation! It's good to read what you both have to say. I'd like to respond, first to Maria's message. Pardon if this gets a bit long! I've got a few things to say.

Maria, you wrote:

Having a list has helped me enormously.

Yeah, me too. I find it fascinating to read about what folks from around the world are doing. I've found that putting something up on the list is a great way to bust out of my procrastination doldrums. I tend to put stuff off, let the pressure build, then start to feel guilty, which tires me out, which makes me not want to study, etc. The 'ol negative energy cycle. If I post something here, it wakes me up and gets me going.

I'm a sporadic contributor but an avid reader!

Again, this is cool because you've been benefiting from your "lurker" status. Perkins & Newman (1996:162) point out how this is useful. Lurking is usually equated with passivity and failure, but this not need be the case:

"not only is scholarly contempt for lurkers unwarranted, but lurking should be recognized in educational settings as a particular feature of e-discourse that is beneficial to many and one way to participate".

Your comment reminds me of the observing audience and the importance of addressing it directly. This has an effect on my writing style- I tend to take much more care when posting to a listserv, such as this list. The process of putting something out to the public makes me want to do my best (well, at least to put more effort into communicating than normal). For example, in writing to this list I'm conscious to make use of various meta-communicative moves when possible. This is all from the benefit derived by the participation of "lurkers." So, folks shouldn't feel guilty about lurking. We need to remember that people participate just by being there.

Even if I don't chip in to a discussion it's great to know that there's a community of us.

Yes, that is totally the point: just knowing it's there is a help and a support. We know we can access and contact others if we want to. This knowledge is a positive thing, even if one never actually takes advantage of it.

When I've asked a question / made a comment I always get responses.

Yes! This always is the case because this program is made up of good people who appreciate an opportunity to help out if they can. In fact, in all the hundreds of threads I've read when putting together the DLA, I've yet to come across a single instance of flaming. Frank and honest is about as heated as it gets, as Steve Mann once told me. Makes me wonder why people have such fear about contributing! I think its not really fear of getting flamed, its just this debilitating sense of "I'm not good/smart enough" or "I don't have anything worthwhile to contribute." Poppycock, I say!

Without the list I think I'd have felt isolated.

You would be more isolated; that's a fact. You'd manage to get by, but it would take more work than it does now to stave off that isolation feeling.

I have colleagues I can talk to, but they're not doing my course, right now so it's not reciprocal in the same way.

This points out the importance of community and belonging in what we do on the MSc. While doing my IIC assignment on a DL thread, I came across a great quote by some Pinkie named "McDermott" (in Smith, M. K. 2003. Communities of practice, in The Encyclopedia of InformalEducation).   It went like this:

"learning is in the conditions that bring people together and organize a point of contact that allows for particular pieces of information to take on a relevance; without the points of contact, without the system of relevancies, there is not learning, and there is little memory. Learning does not belong to individual persons, but to the various conversations of which they are a part."

That's the role the DL can provide. A place where discussions take place is a place where community, support, and real learning happen.

Jerry - I've looked through the list archive to search for leads on assignment topics.

This is a good idea. I haven't used it in that way. I will definitely include this point in my diss. For me I like to use it to get an inside view of what a module is like. What kinds of issues come up? Sometimes CPs discuss various tasks or shed light on various issues. This is all good, and helps me get a sense of the course.

Interesting how the same things cycle round.

Totally true- this phenomenon was one of the initial motivations for creating the archive. The hope is that providing access to these cycles would encourage a gradual upward (or downward, depending on your point of view) spin. In other words, access to the past can provide context and clarity that enables CPs to deepen understanding of these archetypal issues. Having everything on the net is awesome- if you're chatting about something and recall a previous discussion on the topic, all you have to do is include a link within the narrative of your message. I do this all the time, especially with all the new CPs I've been in contact with. I've realized that our own education is not only for ourselves. The individual journeys we write about, the issues we discuss and investigate, all become part of this living, ever-growing corpus of situated learning in action. It's quite cool to think that some "dumb" question I ask today may help someone out years on down the road.

And often there are references to books / articles / ideas I hadn't been aware of. Definitely worth doing in the research stage of assignment.

Yes, there are TONS of references, links, and other good stuff in there. Using the "search" function can help you find some of it, but recently, David's QSG is THE place to go for all this stuff. On the archive, it's all scattered about.

Karen, you wrote:

That's one of my problems with the list Jerry by the way, I often don't have the time to contribute, or by the time I do the discussion has moved on or stopped and my contribution no longer seems relevant.

Tell me about it! This "lack of time" thing is the bane of my MSc existence. I'm feeling some pressure to get this response off today, for I know that if I wait another day, it's much less likely I'll get any responses. Pressure is a fact of life on this program, but dealing with that is another topic... One thing I do know is that time spent putting energy into making discussions happen is energy well spent. I've always gotten back more than I've put in.

Like Maria, I find the list has helped me to feel part of a community and therefore less isolated, although when it goes dead I can feel very cut off.

Again, this points to our need for belonging to a community, for interaction. This is the hardest part about distance learning- you have to make extra effort to find community. It's not "built-in" the way it is with regular face-to-face learning. Learning to communicate and connect via writing means learning new skills and ways of expression. Some people just don't like to write, while others find their grove. Like Feenburg says,

"many users have developed their compensatory literary capability to project their personality in writing." (Freenburg, A.1989. The written world: on the theory & practice of computer conferencing. In Mindweave, Kaye & Mason (eds), 22-39, Pergamon Press)

I enjoy reading about what other people are researching, or doing in their classrooms, and how they're coping with the pressures of study on top of work and everyday life in distant places.

Me, too!

When I have plucked up the nerve to ask a question people have responded generously.

This almost always happens.

I suspect that a lot of discussions continue off the list.

This is documented fact! I've got data to back this up. I did my IIC assignment on that recent "Data" thread, the one where Robert Haines asked CPs to comment on a couple to quotes about the nature of data and research. From my point of view, there were 17 messages on-list, and 18 off-list. Made me realize that on-list discourse is really much like what goes on in a classroom- short turns, people expressing their opinions and thats it, etc. But, off-list, in the comfort of one-to-one contact, things are much looser, personal, and wide-ranging. And, although on the surface is looks like discussions are too short, when looked at closely, this rich tapestry of communication emerges. That was a cool assignment. I learned a lot. It's one reason I want to take it further, to the diss level.

So, anyway, those are my thoughts on the impact of the discussion list and the dl archive. I'd really like to hear from anyone else out there who has any thoughts about the discussion list, and what it means to have access to our community's discourse history via the dl archive.

Cheers,

Jerry
Japan

Re: DL Impact | Jerry Talandis Jr. | September 19th, 2004

Hello David, Dave M, Francesca, and everyone,

Thanks for continuing this conversation about the impact of our discussion list (DL) and the access we now have to past discussions. This has all been very interesting and mostly useful to me personally. Thanks everyone for contributing so far. I'd like to respond to bits that caught my attention from your messages.

David, you wrote:

I particularly like the idea that there are two discussions in a sense, a public Discussion List one and a private email one.  (There is a nice assignment or dissertation in that!)

Well, I certainly agree! When I did my IIC assignment ("Discourse characteristics of an Aston LSU discussion list thread"), my data showed a vast difference in writing styles between on and off-list discourse. I felt at the time this could have made a great project focus. I took the time to really get into a discussion, and what I found was that list interaction is just the tip of the iceberg. This was heartening to find. If anyone wants to do this for a project, please interview me 'cause I can talk about this topic for hours! I also have lots of data and refs to check out.

David:   like Francesca, I also really liked your comments about socialization and learning: I've come to see that in a real sense, the MSc is a process of socialization as much as it is a process of academic learning. I totally agree. The Skinner quote was cool, too. Makes sense to me- what we can articulate clearly to others is a measure of what we have really learned. That's why we need each other, why having a community is so important for learning. Learning via distance mode has made me much more aware of this; if I were attending a "regular" school, I probably would have taken this for granted. Not having access to face to face interaction, having to work for a feeling of collegial camaraderie, struggling with the process of learning new communication skills- all these things help me appreciate how real learning takes place.

Thanks for posting that quote from Wenger. His "Community of Practice" concept was a main pillar of my IIC assignment, and I'm glad you introduced his work to our community. This part really struck me:

We accumulate skills and information, not in the abstract as ends in themselves, but in the service of an identity.    It is in that formation of an identity that learning can become a source of meaningfulness and of personal and social energy.

Over the past three+ years that I've been studying on this program, I've felt this new identity grow, little by little. It's been very exciting! When I started, I thought I'd never make a good academic <insert negative self-thoughts here>, but I don't feel that way anymore. This is a big thing for me. I feel more like a real teacher all the time, and I'm grateful for this. Having a space to interact and learn with others has been a real help in this growth process.

To support learning is not only to support the process of acquiring knowledge, but also to offer a place where new ways of knowing can be realized in the form of such an identity.

Yes, you're right, David- this really does sound like Wenger is talking about our little discussion list.

Dave Mackie wrote:

I snarl a little at the term "lurkers". There are plenty of times when people don't have time to write anything, or maybe don't have anything new to add to a thread. Distance Ed. specialists obviously want lively interpersonal communications, but it's very unfair to give people a negative label when they don't or can't interact in that way.

Francesca wrote:

By the way, I agree with David M. about 'lurkers' being negative labelling. Can we come up with another term for those who read but don't write ? How about 'readers' ( not to be confused with those small books are students like to read so much ) ?

Yeah, it isn't a very nice term, is it? I've seen it a lot in the literature about email, and it's been used so much that you can forget how negative it is. "Readers" sounds good to me, or "observers", or "observer participants" (OPs). In general, it seems to me that people who only read a discussion list tend to feel guilty about it (see this CP's comments from a previous DL thread.

I'm in the final stages of the Aston DL program (writing my diss). I've been a lurker the entire time. :-(

I agree a lot with what Jenny said about participation on the discussion list. I read every message and enjoy that aspect of it but at the same time feel like a loser for just "lurking". I guess it's just that I don't always feel that I have anything to share.

It also seems to me that people who participate a lot on a list can get frustrated that more people don't. Here's something I wrote two years ago as part of the same discussion above:

One thing that shocked me when I first started was the lack of people using this discussion list. After I first signed up, I waited for several days before I got any messages. I thought I had made a mistake or something. It's not a resource used extensively by more than a few regulars, which is a shame. The vast responses you've gotten show that if anyone is willing to put themselves out there a wee bit, the benefits can be great. I don't really know why this list isn't used more; that is one of the questions I'd like to get an answer to as part of the DL module group that will start working together shortly. I really have gotten a lot from participating in this forum, way more than I have put into it. It's a great deal from all perspectives. I just wish others could realize the same. I'm looking forward to working with other DL members to help make the MSc learning experience better for everyone.

It doesn't really frustrate me any more, for I've come to understand a wider perspective. From doing research on the list, I've seen that everyone who subscribes participates in one way or another, no matter what they do. Here's a great quote by Watzlawick (1979:74):

There is no such thing as non-behavior... Now, if it is accepted that all behavior in an interactional situation has message value, i.e., is communication, it follows that no matter how one may try, one cannot not communicate. Activity or inactivity, words or silence all have message value: They influence others and these others, in turn, cannot not respond to these communications and are thus themselves communicating.

So, if Watzlawick is correct, then we can move beyond the negativity inherent in the "Lurker" term. I hope that everyone can acknowledge and accept the presence and participation of everyone on this list, whether just as a reader or as an active participant.

Dave, you also said that

"It's very nice to know there is a community out there who share interests, problems, successes. That's very encouraging, and has already been very helpful!"

How has the list been helpful, if I may ask? This is precisely the sort of thing I'm after for my diss.

If anyone else out there has any thoughts about our little list, having access to our discourse history, or anything, please let us know.

Thanks for reading.

Jerry
Toyama, Japan

 

Archive Categories