Great response, but why so rare?
Great response, but why so rare? | Yvonne Beaudry | January 18th, 2005
All,
It makes me wish I had made more use of the discussion list in the past.
I wonder why more people don't. When I heard that this list was part of the program I thought it was a great idea and was expecting several messages a day. Are we all so independent that we don't need it? Or is it a case of the list seeming to be for big questions only? Or not wanting to be the one who asks an 'obvious' question? Or just too busy? I don't know.
After I joined and didn't see many posts I got the 'big question' impression. If we were in a physical class we would probably talk during the breaks and go for coffee after class and talk about all topics.
It's a shame we are not using it.
Yvonne
Re: Great response, but why so rare? | Jerry Talandis Jr. | January 30, 2005
Howdy all,
Finally I have some time to respond to this!
On Jan 18, 2005, at 10:51 AM, Yvonne Beaudry wrote:
I wonder why more people don't. When I heard that this list was part of the program I thought it was a great idea and was expecting several messages a day. Are we all so independent that we don't need it?
Yes, I had exactly that same response. You can read that version of this topic here.
Or is it a case of the list seeming to be for big questions only? Or not wanting to be the one who asks a 'obvious' question? Or just too busy? I don't know.
Well, in the research I've done so far, I'd say all of what you guess is true, and more. It's a combination of things. I think it would make a great assignment topic! Anyone up for it?? :-)
In general, I've found that fear and lack of time are the biggest reasons why people don't respond. Remember, this list is a public thing. Discourse here is very different than private, one on one discussion. It's like we're all sitting in a lecture hall. A question is raised, and only the active folks near the front answer (or not). Others pay attention raptly, but feel they have nothing to add or are unworthy to do so. Often a few comments are made by students standing up and saying their piece, kind of like mini-speeches or declarative statements. Folks nod their heads, and then life goes on. So, fear of speaking up is a barrier, as is the time/energy required to muster up the courage to do so. Not to mention the time it takes to type out responses. The list is all well and good, but for the most part, we are all too busy. But, that doesn't mean we should give up trying. In the end, it's about quality, not quantity.
After I joined and didn't see many posts I got the 'big question' impression.
Well, sometimes it's a big question that gets things going, but often it's just some innocuous comment that sparks this big thing. In fact, often big questions are most inhibiting! In my experience, simple questions of advice get the best response, such as the recent one by Eleni asking for help with the SPRE article. Seems like big, detailed discussions emerge once some ice-breaking has taken place.
If we were in a physical class we would probably talk during the breaks and go for coffee after class and talk about all topics.
Yes, that's exactly what does take place. I have data to back it up! :-) Last year I took part in a discussion here and kept a journal of my interaction. Of course I copied and saved every related message. More than half of that experience took place off-list, in the comfort of one-on-one dialog. It's just really hard to hold a "conversation" when there are so many eyes looking at you (even if you can't see them, you know they are there!)
It's a shame we are not using it.
Well, we are, actually, just maybe not as we imagine or expect. I've read just about every message ever sent, and I can tell there have been TONS & TONS of AMAZING discussions through the years! That's why I'm excited about putting together a good archive, because access to such stuff can really help make a difference and improve the way we go about situated learning.
What I think this list needs is organized leadership. It doesn't have to be a tutor (although I would favor more tutor involvement- my research shows that threads where tutors chime in are often more stimulating); it could be one of us CPs. Or it could be a small group of CPs. Or it could just be up to whomever starts a thread to make it their priority for a while to see it through. Leadership involves doing things that help conversations in virtual space evolve- initiating a discussion, responding to all responses, summarizing, weaving comments, helping guide it along, then closing it down clearly. Without leadership, a discussion naturally dissipates rapidly due to a competition in its direction: A asks a question, B & C respond. What now? Do we follow up on B's comments or C's? No one is "in charge," so nothing happens. Sometimes this all works out naturally, and that's great. But, if we want a better experience, then we need to think about ways to start and guide discussions once they happen. I'm up for some discussion on how we can improve things, but even if nothing does, I'm still at peace with the way things are. It's what you put in...
Jerry
Japan
Re: Great response, but why so rare? | Paul Raper | January 30, 2005
Well Jerry,
That's a big one. Looks like you've been saving yourself.
It made interesting reading, and I would say that it is a pity that the tutors don't take a bigger part. I know of one who says that they don't know if they want to take part, and that I think is a shame. I wonder why not. Could it be a fear of saying something that they get held to later or could it simply be it's more interesting from the side lines. We can but speculate.
I'm not sure though about the leadership bit though! You can't force anything through here, as I have found out. True, the talk heats up when a controversial subject comes up; remember innate learning?
I don't know that the list needs anything except time and a bit of drive from the individuals. Do you remember my making the same comments last year when I started out? I said back then what's happened to all the people? Are there any? And I think you and Dave answered the question back then.
The list goes through cycles as I see it. These cycles maybe connected to when people are working on assignments. We mail in for inspiration, and then get our heads down and start on it.
What I have done is to set my e-mail programme to sort out the lists mails into a separate folder, that way I can monitor it better.
On the whole I find the best way to work is to have one or two good friends who I know don't mind my stupid questions, that way we work together on difficult projects, remember the CD and study mats?
Only when I think that the topic is one for the list do I then share it. This I think is very much like the coffee break idea. We can't crack the problem a couple of us together, put it to the class, except we are all one big class together which you wouldn't have in a conventional situation.
This last point I think is extremely pertinent to our study method. In a normal class you would only work with your year. Here we all work together and share all our experiences no matter what the time frame.
Sorry for the ramblings.
Paul
Re: Great response, but why so rare? | Jerry Talandis Jr. | January 31st, 2005
Hi Paul and all,
I would say that it is a pity that the tutors don't take a bigger part.
Yup, that's my feeling as well. Have you read some of those old GE discussion threads where Thomas Bloor holds court? They are amazing. I hardly know what he's saying, but it's still amazing! If a tutor posts their opinion, it almost always guarantees more people will join in a discussion. This happened in one thread I was tracking for my IIC assignment. The message sent in by a tutor got the most responses and had a major effect on the direction of the discussion. I know that some feel that this is a "CP Only" space, but I for one wouldn't mind it if more tutors got involved. I'm not sure others out there in CP land feel this way... do you? Why or why not?
I'm not sure though about the leadership bit though! You can't force anything through here, as I have found out.
That's very true. But, if a number of CPs wished to have a more invigorating discussion list experience, with a little organization and extra effort, improved results could be achieved. Here are some ideas I cited in my IIC assignment for improving discussion list activity:
Another realization was the importance of meta-communicative skills for moving discussions forward. Where such strategies were used (such as recognizing, quoting, linking, and weaving), conversation flourished (even after a long delay); where they weren't, the flow of discussion tended to die out. The journal I kept helped me tremendously, enabling simultaneous reflection on my involvement. The awareness I gained of my language use motivated me to take on an informal leadership role in the discussion, which, over time, generated measurable benefits. Moderating was not easy, however: it took lots of time and effort to reflect on all the messages coming in and prepare proper responses. I could understand why no one has been willing taken on such a role. This is a shame, however, as my experience has shown that a modicum of leadership and improved writing skills can measurably produce a more vigorous, vibrant dynamic. At the very least, basic meta-communication skills could be discussed in the hope that interested parties then take on and share moderating functions. Working as a team, ideas for improving DL activity could be experimented with, such as these based on King (1999):
· Choose a "question of the week/month" to ensure a steady flow of activity
· Have an online debate
· Conduct a poll or survey and discuss the results
· Have CPs keep a participation journal then have a discussion on how it impacted their discussion experience
· Invite a guest lecturer to post some recent research findings, then discuss them
· Invite Aston tutors to have an online panel discussion, then discuss the proceedings
So, "leadership" is all about how you define it. It could be as formal as a moderator (not a popular idea, from what I've gathered), or as informal as an interested and motivated CP who, through their active involvement in a discussion, takes on a defacto leadership role. That's what happened to me just because I was really interested in one topic and made the time to keep pushing at it.
The list goes through cycles as I see it. These cycles maybe connected to when people are working on assignments. We mail in for inspiration, and then get our heads down and start on it.
This is also my experience with this list. In my reading, I discovered that it's basically everyone's experience! Here is what Nagel (1996) had to say about this:
The Natural Life Cycle of Mailing Lists
Kat Nagel
Every list seems to go through the same cycle:
1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush a lot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls).
2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, and brainstorm recruitment strategies).
3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up).
4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions).
5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed).
6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list).
OR
6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever after).
So, where are we? Who knows! The point is that what we have here is par for the course, and I think that's a calming thing to those who may worry that we are abnormal or something.
On the whole I find the best way to work is to have one or two good friends who I know don't mind my stupid questions, that way we work together on difficult projects. Only when I think that the topic is one for the list do I then share it. This I think is very much like the coffee break idea.
Sounds like a good plan to me! Seems like on and off-list discourse each has its place and role in an overall successful situated learning experience! Oh, do I smell another assignment topic? :-)
I don't know that the list needs anything except time and a bit of drive from the individuals. Do you remember my making the same comments last year when I started out? I said back then what's happened to all the people? Are there any? And I think you and Dave answered the question back then.
Yes, but I think a lot of people read your words and thought about them in their own way.
Thanks for your response! Each time this topic comes up it gets pushed forward a little. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves through the years.
Jerry
Re: Great response, but why so rare? | Paul Raper | January 31st, 2005
I feel it to be critical that they get involved. Why? Well simply put one of the reasons why we are studying a masters is to get some high level discussion in. I'm in no way implying that the rest of the group aren't high level, but come on let's be honest, they have their doctorates etc to prove that they have done the work.
A second point is that it would be nice from time to time to know if we are on the right track. Perhaps why they stay out of it.
I would truly appreciate hearing some more tutor opinions.
Perhaps some tutors might like to join in on this one and state some reasons why the do or do not take part.
Paul
Re: Great response, but why so rare? | Jerry Talandis Jr. | February 1st, 2005
I feel it to be critical that they get involved. Why? Well simply put one of the reasons why we are studying a masters is to get some high level discussion in.
A second point is that it would be nice from time to time to know if we are on the right track
I totally agree!
Jerry
Japan
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