ramesh's metaphor survey
Ramesh's metaphor survey | Jerry Talandis Jr. | October 14th, 2005
Hello everyone,
I and a bunch of other Japan-based CPs had the pleasure of meeting at a big teachers conference last weekend in Shizuoka. Many of us attended a special lecture by Ramesh Krishnamurthy, one of our tutors on this program. Ramesh presented on the topic of "Teaching & Learning English Metaphors". It was quite interesting, and being in an audience with so many Aston CPs present made it feel like a "real" class at Aston. Very nice.
During his presentation, Ramesh passed out a draft questionnaire on metaphor for teachers. He asked people to offer him some feedback. I thought I'd post a copy of his questionnaire here. If you have anything to say, such as an additional question you think should be asked, or whatever, please post your comments here. The questions are very interesting, and it would be nice to discuss some of them here as well. Personally, the questionnaire looks fine to me. What do you think?
Jerry
Japan
PS: Oh, Ramesh gave me permission to post this and is looking forward to your feedback. Thanks.
Draft Questionnaire on Metaphor (for Teachers)
Ramesh Krishnamurthy
1. Can you remember any instances of problems with metaphors among your students?
2. Are they usually problems of decoding or encoding, i.e. of understanding (written texts or speech?) or production (essays, speech)?
3. Have you ever tried to explain what a metaphor is?
4. Did you just explain the meaning differences for the item involved, or did you try to explain the principles of metaphor in a broader way?
5. Have you ever tried to relate metaphor usage in the learner's L2 with metaphor usage in their L1?
6. Have you ever taught a whole lesson specifically on metaphor? Was the lesson about examples of metaphors, in a list or in a specific text, or about the principles of metaphor?
7. Do your students use metaphors in their writing and speech?
8. Are there any published materials on metaphor that you use, and would recommend?
9. Do you agree that more attention should be devoted to raising the awareness of students to metaphors and the principles of metaphor?
10. It seems that native-speakers of a language use metaphors more. Do you agree? If so, is it important whether your students are studying in order to deal directly with native-speaker or access native-speaker-generated language or not?
Re: Ramesh's metaphor survey | R. Krishnamurthy | October 14th, 2005
Thanks for posting this, Jerry!
It was great for me to meet so many of you, and put faces to so many names that I only knew from emails until now!
More later.
Best for now,
Ramesh
Re: Ramesh's metaphor survey | Rob Haines | October 15th, 2005
Jerry, thanks for sharing Ramesh's questions with those of us in countries he'll probably never visit. :-)
Everyone,
Here's an article for those of you interested in metaphor (clusters) in discourse.
Cameron, L. and Stelma, J. (2004). "Metaphor clusters in discourse". Journal of Applied Linguistics, 1(2), 7-36.
Abstract
The phenomenon of clustering, where speakers or writers suddenly produce multiple metaphors, is widespread and intriguing. This paper presents an innovative visualization methodology for identifying and exploring metaphor clusters, comparing it to existing methods that use cumulative frequency graphs and Poisson curve fitting, and addressing issues that arise from these. Identification of clusters from the visualization is shown to be reliable and practical, while also offering in-depth exploration across a range of discourse parameters. Conversations aimed at conciliation between a perpetrator of violence and a victim(total 160 minutes) are analysed for clusters and their discourse functions. All techniques show clusters at two distinct time scales, of around one minute and of several seconds. Clusters in conciliation talk account for about 42 per cent of the total metaphors, and cover about 30 per cent of the discourse. Discourse work carried out in clusters includes explanation of a speaker's perspective to the Other, appropriation of metaphors originally used by the Other, and exploration of alternative, negative, scenarios that had been possible choices for the speaker but had been rejected. The finding that metaphor clusters are sites of intensive work relating to the central discourse purpose supports cluster exploration as a heuristic tool for discourse analysis.
Another article by the same author that you might find interesting:
"The Complex Dynamics of Language Use on Tasks", which seems to call for more chaos (Hurrah!) in language teaching/learning.
Rob
Re: Ramesh's metaphor survey | Joe Madrid | October 21st, 2005
Hi!
Is it my imagination, or do people confuse the meaning of 'metaphor' with 'simile'and 'idiom'? While looking for ready made lessons on metaphors on the internet, I come across many examples of what was claimed to be a metaphor (comparing two things without using 'like' or 'as') but were really idioms lessons. Has anyone else had this experience?
As Ramesh asked in his survey, does anyone know of a good website they would recommend for use in class?
METAPHOR SURVEY
1. Can you remember any instances of problems with metaphors among your students?
Yes
2. Are they usually problems of decoding or encoding, i.e. of understanding (written texts or speech?) or production (essays, speech)?
Usually both, although production seems to be the most problematic.
3. Have you ever tried to explain what a metaphor is?
No
4. Did you just explain the meaning differences for the item involved, or did you try to explain the principles of metaphor in a broader way?
I only explained the difference between the items and then asked them to compare for similar metaphors in their L1.
5. Have you ever tried to relate metaphor usage in the learner's L2 with metaphor usage in their L1?
Yes (see above)
6. Have you ever taught a whole lesson specifically on metaphor? Was the lesson about examples of metaphors, in a list or in a specific text, or about the principles of metaphor?
No, never. Too frightened at overloading the students with information. Also, metaphor, in my mind, suggests using one's imagination. My experience is that Spanish students do not fair particularly well in that department as they are (or were) not encouraged to do creative writing at school. Perhaps that's good enough reason to do a whole lesson on metaphor.
7. Do your students use metaphors in their writing and speech?
Very infrequently.
8. Are there any published materials on metaphor that you use, and would recommend?
No. I've been looking and haven't found anything as yet.
9. Do you agree that more attention should be devoted to raising the awareness of students to metaphors and the principles of metaphor?
Yes and no. I believe it's an extremely important aspect of native language communication. However, when they would get the opportunity to use metaphor is another question, hence my reticence at spending time on it.
10. It seems that native-speakers of a language use metaphors more. Do you agree? If so, is it important whether your students are studying in order to deal directly with native-speaker or access native-speaker-generated language or not?
Yes, I agree with the first point. With the second point, the majority of my students need English for work purposes. However, they are in contact much more with other non-native speakers of other languages than with native English speakers. They are less likely then to come across and use metaphors.
What do the rest of you think?
Joe
Re: Ramesh's survey | Ramesh Krishnamurthy | October 22nd, 2005
Hi Joe,
I'm intending to publish a research paper on this topic in the very near future.
The Japan CPs who attended my JALT talk heard a preliminary draft version.
Yes, many people use 'metaphor' as a generic term to include all 'figurative language' (i.e. incl simile, metonymy, etc) and the processes involved, as opposed to 'a metaphor', which is often restricted in the way you mention ("X is Y", rather than "X is like Y").
This seems to have coincided with the shift since the 1980s (Lakoff and Johnson etc) away from considering metaphor as a (frozen) literary device to a (living, productive, everyday) cognitive process.
Yes, the EFL coursebooks I have looked at recently seem to conflate 'metaphor' and idiom'. In my recent research on 'metaphor', I am trying to distinguish metaphor from idiom: metaphor applies to a single lexical item, an idiom is a multi-word phrase in which at least one of the items is being used in a metaphorical sense.
Of course, it is a complex procedure, as 'literal/metaphorical' senses are themselves difficult to distinguish, and the meaning of most items are the result of a semantic shift or metaphorical process from a historical perspective, so it depends which meaning you select as the 'literal/conventional', e.g. 'catch a cold':
(a) 'a cold' is historically an extended (metaphorical?) sense (as also signalled in its shift from adjective to noun?) which moved from a purely 'temperature' meaning to a 'illness resulting (in folk-thinking) from exposure to cold'
(b) but 'a cold' is now a conventional term for 'an illness' (with a larger repertoire of 'folk-causes'?)
(c) 'catch' is an extended (metaphorical?) sense, certainly distinguishable from the 'physical' (literal?) sense of 'catch' as in 'catch a ball', and probably recognized as metaphorical by most current English-speakers(?)
Thanks for your answers to my questionnaire! I hope to write a subsequent paper on the questionnaire and its responses.
Best for now,
Ramesh
Re: Ramesh's metaphor survey | Mike McDonald | October 22nd, 2005
I previously sent a private message to Ramesh in response to his questionnaire. Since Joe has sent his response to this mailing list, and since Ramesh has expressed his willingness for me to do the same, I am resending it here in the hope that it will provide further fuel for discussion.
1. Can you remember any instances of problems with metaphors among your students?
As far as I can tell, my students use metaphors in their writing more than in their speech, so the former is where problems tend to occur. One type of problem is wrong collocation, such as "a wide heart" for "a big heart" and "a thin taste" for "a weak taste". Another is inappropriate direct translation of Japanese idioms, such as "a high nose" for a conceited attitude and "wash the feet" for turning over a new leaf.
2. Are they usually problems of decoding or encoding, i.e. of understanding (written texts or speech?) or production (essays, speech)?
It's easier to tell when the problems occur in encoding, since I have ready access to such problems when they occur in students' speech or writing. The same problems are probably occurring in understanding, but only become noticeable when they lead to a problem in communication.
3. Have you ever tried to explain what a metaphor is?
Not that I can remember.
4. Did you just explain the meaning differences for the item involved, or did you try to explain the principles of metaphor in a broader way?
I did not try to explain.
5. Have you ever tried to relate metaphor usage in the learner's L2 with metaphor usage in their L1?
Yes, in my translation project group. In one session, I focused on the problem of differences in collocation. We talked about differences such as "this coffee is strong" (English) and "this coffee is thick" (Japanese) and "pull someone's leg" = play a joke on someone (English) vs. "pull someone's leg" = slown someone down (Japanese).
6. Have you ever taught a hole lesson specifically on metaphor? Was the lesson about examples of metaphors, in a list or in a specific text, or about the principles of metaphor?
No, not a whole lesson.
7. Do your students use metaphors in their writing and speech?
As you said in your talk, it's often very hard to distinguish metaphor from non-metaphor, since many words have a metaphoric origin, such as "pontiff", and even more have possible metaphoric usages, such as "heart". Language about about non-material topics such as emotions tends to be metaphoric by its very nature, because it is so much easier to talk about immaterial things in terms of material things ("heart", "guts", "burning desire", "dry humour", etc.). My students don't use many multi-word idioms such as "caught between a rock and a hard place", but they do use some metaphoric collocations and single-word metaphors. Looking through some of their journals from this spring, I quickly found the following examples: "We got too much absorbed and we played [billiards] for four hours", "we talked about the atmosphere of the university", (about mah-jong): "At first I was very lucky. The pull of the tile was good", "I got acclimatized to a university life a little", "A university life flowing is in some way catching", "I make up my mind to keep on violin", "I clearly understand my weak food" (= the food I am not fond of). As you can see, the metaphoric usage is not always correct, but nonetheless I think it is definitely intentional.
8. Are there any published materials on metaphor that you use, and would recommend?
Long, long ago, I used to lift examples for my teaching materials out of the paperback Oxford Dictionary of Idioms and Phrasal Verbs, and more recently I have used the Kenkyusha Dictionary of English Collocations for the same purpose. However, I can't think of any texts I've come across that are more specifically about metaphor.
9. Do you agree that more attention should be devoted to raising the awareness of students to metaphors and the principles of metaphor?
Perhaps, but not too early in their learning career. My students are alreadyburdened with learning the basics of the language. Up to a certain stage they can get by without much use of overt metaphor. When they get beyond survival English, conversation becomes possible, and I think that may be the best stage at which to start introducing metaphor.
10. It seems that native-speakers of a language use metaphors more. Do you agree?
Yes.
If so, is it important whether your students are studying in order to deal directly with native-speaker or access native-speaker-generated language or not?
Yes, it's important. I believe that one important function of metaphor and idiom is to foster solidarity by cultivating a sense of shared cultural background. Thus when dealing with native English speakers, a command of metaphor allows non-native speakers to enter that special shared domain.
Cheers,
Mike McDonald
Ramesh's questionnaire on metaphor | Rob Haines | October 23rd, 2005
It's been interesting reading the responses to Ramesh's questionnaire. Thanks for sharing them. I'd now like to do the same.
1. Can you remember any instances of problems with metaphors among your students?
Yes, just yesterday a hungry student said to me something like, "Rob, in my stomach there is thunder."
2. Are they usually problems of decoding or encoding, i.e. of understanding (written texts or speech?) or production (essays, speech)?
This was of course the latter problem, which seems to be a reflection of problems ingeneral.
3. Have you ever tried to explain what a metaphor is?
Yes. I think most students already know though. Last term at least one student asked me to explain what a metaphor is.
4. Did you just explain the meaning differences for the item involved, or did you try to explain the principles of metaphor in a broader way?
I started with the item involved by asking what had brought up the question. Unfortunately, it was simply the word 'metaphor' and not a metaphor itself. I usedexamples to explain, then asked for examples from the student to concept check.
5. Have you ever tried to relate metaphor usage in the learner's L2 with metaphor usage in their L1?
Yes, I like to do this on a regular basis because it's usually fun, informative and motivating for learners. Sometimes 'monolingual groups' discover different metaphor(s) among dialects.
6. Have you ever taught a whole lesson specifically on metaphor? Was the lesson about examples of metaphors, in a list or in a specific text, or about the principles of metaphor?
If, by lesson, you mean a span of time in class that was dedicated to a single topicor theme, then yes. I can't remember any text other than a story or anecdote (oral and written text). The lesson was probably more emergent than planned.
7. Do your students use metaphors in their writing and speech?
Yes, and I sometimes think I miss metaphor(s) in student communication because I, as an English teacher, am trying to decode their English against a mental lexicon of more non-metaphorical language. I should work on that.
8. Are there any published materials on metaphor that you use, and would recommend?
Stories that stir the imagination, appeal to students' interests and are appropriate to their level of English.
9. Do you agree that more attention should be devoted to raising the awareness of students to metaphors and the principles of metaphor?
Awareness-raising activities could be effective, but I'm not so keen on explanations and teaching metaphor at the chalkboard. I'm not sure what 'principles of metaphor' means.
10. It seems that native-speakers of a language use metaphors more. Do you agree?
Yes.
If so, is it important whether your students are studying in order to deal directly with native-speaker or access native-speaker-generated language or not?
In my teaching context (ESL) students immediately want to interact with the host families they live with. Next, come reading academic texts. Both are important.
Thanks, Ramesh, for inviting me to answer this questionnaire. Good luck with the paper. Who's going to mark it? :-)
Rob
Re: Ramesh's questionnaire | Jerry Talandis Jr. | October 25th, 2005
Hey all,
I've enjoyed reading about everyone's responses to Ramesh's questionnaire, so I thought I'd chime in with mine.
1. Can you remember any instances of problems with metaphors among your students?
I teach two college-level advanced communication classes here at our school in Japan, and the textbook I use (Innovations, by Dellar, Walkley, & Hocking), is "lexical approach" book chock-full of collocations, idioms, and metaphoric language. My students have lot's of trouble figuring out the meaning of these phrases.
2. Are they usually problems of decoding or encoding, i.e. of understanding (written texts or speech?) or production (essays, speech)?
I'd say both problems exist for my students. First, they have trouble catching the meanings of various phrases, and then once they understand them, of actually incorporating them into their active vocabulary.
3. Have you ever tried to explain what a metaphor is?
Yes, I did at the beginning of the school year and have referred to this definition from time to time, especially when teaching about the meanings of various idiomatic phrases.
4. Did you just explain the meaning differences for the item involved, or did you try to explain the principles of metaphor in a broader way?
I did both, more of the former once the latter was already established.
5. Have you ever tried to relate metaphor usage in the learner's L2 with metaphor usage in their L1?
Well, I usually have my students try to translate an idiom into their own language. Of course, this doesn't always work, so I have them come up with something as close as possible.
6. Have you ever taught a whole lesson specifically on metaphor? Was the lesson about examples of metaphors, in a list or in a specific text, or about the principles of metaphor?
Not on metaphor per se... I have done entire lessons on idiomatic expressions, such as the "Body Idioms" exercise in Unit 2 (p.15). Here, the students had to circle the correct word in the body idioms, such as:
1. My car's on its last feet / legs. I've already started looking for a new one.
2. Have you seen Paula's new laptop? I bet it cost her an arm and a leg / hand.
After this, students are asked to translate these idioms into their own language. Ofcourse this is a pretty funny exercise and gets them thinking about language in a new way.
7. Do your students use metaphors in their writing and speech?
I'm not sure; probably they have, but I can't recall any instances. Most of the time they shy away from using them because they aren't sure they are using them correctly.
8. Are there any published materials on metaphor that you use, and would recommend?
Yes, I would recommend that Innovations book. It's quite rich with natural British English conversation. Most of it washes over their heads, but they pick up a lot in the process. It's a good text for advanced learners. They feel like they are always being challenged and can always learn something new. Since I'm not a Brit, many of the expressions are lost on me as well, and I can have fun with this. In addition, whenever possible, I can point out differences between English English and American English, which is good, I think.
9. Do you agree that more attention should be devoted to raising the awareness of students to metaphors and the principles of metaphor?
Yes, I do, because a lot of "natural English" is filled with metaphorical/ Idiomatic language. Studying metaphors and idioms helps raise awareness of how nativespeakers really talk, and that's a good thing. It's also interesting to find out where these expressions come from. I've had fun deviating from my plans on occasion to follow-up on an interesting tangent sparked by trying to explain where such and such phrase means or came from.
10. It seems that native-speakers of a language use metaphors more. Do you agree?
Oh, absolutely. Just watch any movie closely- It's a wonder how those poor folks who have to translate and create subtitles can manage.
If so, is it important whether your students are studying in order to deal directly with native-speaker or access native-speaker-generated language or not?
I don't know if it's essential that my students make a priority of learning metaphors and idioms, but that they be aware of it. One can function quite well without much knowledge in this area, but for advanced learners who really want to take it to the next level, I think study of metaphor is quite useful. In addition, if students really want to get a lot out of books, films, or music in another language, then some study of metaphor is really important.
So, that's it for now. Ramesh, or anyone, please feel free to ask me more about this subject. These responses are pretty much off the top of my head.
Good luck,
Jerry
Re: Use of metaphors | Jerry Talandis Jr. | October 26th, 2005
In my last post to this list, about Ramesh's survey on metaphors, Rob noticed the following:
Oh, by the way, on the Aston DL you wrote:
Most of it washes over their heads, but they pick up a lot in the process. I'd always heard 'flies over their heads'. Japanese influence? (i.e. wash ones' feet)?
:-) It's all so metaphorical.
Yeah, you're right! That's a metaphorical phrase I used without thinking. I don't know why I said it that way... Perhaps it comes from that phrase, "wash over me", i.e. "I let the music wash over me." Maybe I was taking this phrase and using it in my own way. I tend to do that sometimes. You're right in that "flies over their heads" is more common. Interesting. Why did I do that?
Jerry
Re: Use of metaphors | Ramesh Krishnamurthy | October 27th, 2005
Hi all
I just wanted to thank Joe, Mike, Rob, and Jerry for their questionnaire responses and comments.
They are extremely useful to me, and I am very grateful for them.
I also wanted to apologize in general if anyone is waiting for a reply from me. I've been really busy since getting back from Japan, catching up on hundreds of emails, 2 weeks of the on-campus MA, etc, plus I had my Mac replaced with a new PC last week, so had to transfer all my files, mailboxes, etc, etc.
I will be processing the questionnaire responses properly in a couple of weeks or so.
If any of you would still like to respond, please do, either via tesptesolmsc list, or if you prefer, by separate email to me, r.krishnamurthy@aston.ac.uk
Must go - seminar at 4.15!
Best,
Ramesh
Re: Ramesh's questionnaire | Chris Camden | October 27th, 2005
Hi all
Some news for you all- my wife's pregnant, so we'll be able to start experimenting with baby language soon!
Some comments on the replies to Ramesh's questions:
Someone made the comment that metaphors/idioms are not used often by non-native speakers. This brings to mind the argument about the role of NESTs (native English speaking teachers): do we really want / expect our students to speak like us? When they need to operate in an international context a form of International English devoid of complex idiom could be better.
Is it better to have a NS teacher, or non NS? I would say that it depends on the ss, the level, and what the want to do with English.
What do you think?
Here are my (quick) answers to the survey:
1. Can you remember any instances of problems with metaphors among your students?
Generally no- sometimes after a quick explanation.
2. Are they usually problems of decoding or encoding, i.e. of understanding (written texts or speech?) or production (essays, speech)?
Decoding is usually easy, as many idioms/metaphors are similar enough in Italian. I suppose it depends on the L1 and the general level of literacy of the ss. Production of idioms is harder, as idioms are generally 'set expressions' which ss need to learn parrot fashion. Metaphor on the other hand is easier, as it can be invented as the writer (NS or not) wishes.
3. Have you ever tried to explain what a metaphor is?
No- it's the same in Italian.
4. Did you just explain the meaning differences for the item involved, or did you try to explain the principles of metaphor in a broader way?
I sometimes help ss to understand the items, which occasionally goes of on a tangent, with me pontificating about some ideas or experiences connected with the expression.
5. Have you ever tried to relate metaphor usage in the learner's L2 with metaphor usage in their L1?
Yes- as it is often similar- there are many idioms that are the same in English and Italian, which lead me to think that these same expressions must have been around for a long time, e.g. 'The grass is always greener on the other side' is nearly the same in Italian.
6. Have you ever taught a whole lesson specifically on metaphor? Was the lesson about examples of metaphors, in a list or in a specific text, or about the principles of metaphor?
No.
7. Do your students use metaphors in their writing and speech?
Some, e.g. at advanced level, I have several ss who consciously try to use metaphors / idioms that I teach.
8. Are there any published materials on metaphor that you use, and would recommend?
No, but I like using poetry in class, which is full of metaphor.
9. Do you agree that more attention should be devoted to raising the awareness of students to metaphors and the principles of metaphor?
See my points on International English above. For Italian ss- no, as L1 is sosimilar.
10. It seems that native-speakers of a language use metaphors more. Do you agree?
Yes.
If so, is it important whether your students are studying in order to deal directly with native-speaker or access native-speaker-generated language or not?
Yes- if they want to live in England / USA etc, or they want to understand US films, then yes, but if they need to use English in an International business setting, they don't need metaphor.
Chris
Re: Ramesh's questionnaire | Ramesh Krishnamurthy | October 27th, 2005
Dear Chris,
Congratulations on your impending fatherhood! And thanks for your questionnaire responses...
Dear Jerry and Rob,
I couldn't resist following this up with a corpus search.
There were 431 lines for 'over their heads' in the Bank of English 450m corpus. My impressionistic summary, after 'eyeballing' all the lines quickly, of usage was thus:
(1) MOSTLY PHYSICAL (roof over their heads; planes flying; firing shots/guns; pouring liquids over sb's head; kids/criminals with pillow-cases/duvets over their heads; etc)
(2) 'hanging over their heads' (i.e. risks/dangers/punishment/etc; sword of Damocles, etc)
(3) SOME FOR 'doing sth over their heads' = bypassing sb, not consulting them (eg and dealing with their superiors).
(4) SOME FOR 'in over their heads' = 'in too deep/out of their depth', usu gamblers, investors, etc.
(5) 'OVER THEIR HEADS' = TOO DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND (which I assume is the meaning you intended): 18 lines (16 are BR=British, only 2 are AM=American; more specific sources are also given below):
1. BR [New Scientist] the students were often 'utterly lost" as she talked on, completely over their heads
2. AM [NPR radio] my two older children going to see Threepenny Opera" and me thinking foolishly, 'Well, ther--this is going to go way over their heads .
3. BR [Sun/News of the World - tabloids] Afterwards I said to the bloke organizing the do: 'I think my jokes went over their heads ."
4. BR [Books] A restlessness had overtaken the crowd as they watched the ambassador's rhetoric disappear over their heads.
5. BR [magazines] to truly understand what we're about. Cos it's so bloody simple, it just goes whoooosh # straight over their heads . going on about classes and how we're not like that
6. BR [magazines] But because they send a dyke with a baldy head out there they went [EXPLETIVE] crazy. Of all the things I could have said, I could have said [TABOO WORD], but that would have gone over their heads anyway." [Ramesh's editing, to avoid email/spam problems]
7. BR [Guardian] MUMMY! What's a git?" They've been watching those Harry Enfield videos again. Fifteen and over. Oh dear. Still, all the rude bits go over their heads . They go over mine, too. I have no idea what a git is, either.
8. BR [Guardian] in gardening circles. Yet absolute beginners need not fear that Lloyd is aiming always over their heads . Some experts make gardening sound like
9. AUS [regional newspapers] OVER THEIR HEADS? HIP Oz playboy Jamie Packer and his pal Jodie Meares (right) were two celebs at Sydney's Star City for Brian Henderson's Bandstand reunion last week. The pair raised eyebrows when they left long before the end of the show. Why not? They weren't even tots when Bandstand was hot.
10. BR [ephemera] They asked questions non-stop, they wanted to see everything and have second looks. Of course, that went over their heads , but at their level they have increased their understanding of many things.
11. AM [regional newspapers] These are all tremendously motivated and appreciative students," Neff says of her current class of 15. 'They really do think of their clients first--they're not in this for the money. They keep me at a good application level, so I won't talk over their heads as a nurse. They are a varied group that thinks of good comments and questions."
12. BR [Independent] as he veers uneasily between talking down to his audience (heaven preserve us from bad Damon Albarn impressions - the real thing is tricky enough to cope with) and going wilfully over their heads . One Winston Churchill and Nancy Astor reference is so reluctant to give itself up that a detective chief inspector has to be called in to talk it down off the roof.
13. BR [Independent] The tricky path that has to be negotiated between writing down to children and writing over their heads has defeated many.
14. BR [Independent] you don't want to waste time searching for the correct multi-syllabic word to get your point across, because not only does it go over their heads , they want to beat the crap out of you any way.
15. BR [Independent] If Manhattan Transfer irritate some people, it is because their confident musicality and virtuosity don't so much go over their heads as ricochet unnoticed (or unappreciated) around the room.
16. BR [Times] When people first hear of nine-year-olds being taught philosophy they consider it to be a bit over their heads but that is not the case
17. BR [spoken] higher levels of <M01>... Mm. <M02> feeling that er this was gone [... ???] there were too many cans of worms. But with some of the people on the Council I mean nignogs like [MALE NAME] you know just over their heads . I - I don't believe that people like that could bring themselves down to the er the the sort of [in- ... ???] or raise themselves [laughs] up to the intellectual sort of
18. BR [spoken] found it boring or too difficult <F01> Mm. <F02> er which I think was part of it and I think perhaps he was at that point talking a bit over their heads and they didn't understand erm some of things that he was saying.
As you can see, one or two are still tricky to disambiguate, especially between (1), (3) and (5), (and I found the same even after I extended the context beyond a paragraph).
But I'm afraid I found neither 'fly' nor 'wash'.... But the data suggests this expression is used more in British English? Or could 'fly/wash' be more restricted to North American usage, perhaps?
Best
Ramesh
Re: Use of metaphors | Jerry Talandis Jr. | October 28th, 2005
Hello Ramesh (and everyone),
Wow, you sure did a fine bit of research there... it seems to "prove" that the phrase I used (unconsciously), "it washed over their heads", was something I came up with myself. Rob said (in a private message) that this word was part of my own personal "idiolect." Seems that I have a tendency to use language in my own way. I guess everyone must do that, right? Looking back, I think I got that phrase from "wash over me," such as "I let the music wash over me." I have this image in my mind about information sort of spilling over me, kind of like a wave or something. I suppose I used this meaning when I made that comment about my students hearing lots of explanation from me, much of which they probably don't take in.
Anyway, this is all very interesting, and has made me think more about the language I use.
Jerry
Re: Use of metaphors | Ramesh Krishnamurthy | October 28th, 2005
Hi Jerry,
I think there's a slight difference in meaning between 'sth washing over sb' and 'sth going over sb's head'.
In the 2 nd phrase, it's unlikely that anything sticks in their minds at all, because there is no contact.
So I think you actually subconsciously rejected the 'going over their heads' phrase and adapted the 'music washing over sb' to 'info washing over them' because you wanted to convey the meaning that some of the info does actually stick, even if it's not very much!
Anyone for psycholinguistics?
:-)
Jerry's final comment about 'this is all very interesting, and has made me think more about the language I use' reminded me that I had a similar self-revelation recently, thanks to Rob. It seems from the corpus that British English speakers incorporate a lot more irony into their language than I realized (see below)!
Best
Ramesh
Re: Use of metaphors | Jerry Talandis Jr. | October 28th, 2005
So I think you actually subconsciously rejected the 'going over their heads' phrase and adapted the 'music washing over sb' to 'info washing over them' because you wanted to convey the meaning that some of the info does actually stick, even if it's not very much!
Wow, you know, come to think of it, I believe you're right! Take a look again at my original statement:
Yes, I would recommend that Innovations book. It's quite rich with natural British English conversation. Most of it washes over their heads, but they pick up a lot in the process. It's a good text for advanced learners.
When I listen to a great song, like I did this evening in my car, the music "washes over me" and sinks deep into my mind. If the song is really good, then it resonates with me emotionally, and I keep that with me after the song has finished. I guess that's what I was trying to say: the text I use is so dense and rich, that my students can't possibly retain all of it, but they do learn a lot and end up better off than when they started (I hope).
Interesting. Thanks for clarifying this for me! It's all a bit of a revelation; I didn't think about this consciously when I said it.
Jerry
Re: Use of metaphors | Mike McDonald | October 28th, 2005
When I worked for IBM, we used to take a break from work now and again by browsing through the numerous IBM online forums for employees, some of them very amusing. One was called "Malaphor Forum" (malaphor is a portmanteau word formed from malapropism and metaphor), and was devoted to odd combinations of idioms like Jerry's. A brief sample follows:
• A legend in his own mind.
• A leopard can't change its stripes.
• A little green around the ears.
• A long shot in the dark.
There is a large collection here.
Mike McDonald
Re: Use of metaphors | Ramesh Krishnamurthy | October 29th, 2005
Hi Jerry,
I think I must have subconsciously 'picked up' on the rest of your wording, although I was focusing on 'wash over their heads'...
Nice one, Mike!
Yvonne (I think) sent me a URL for 'mixed metaphors' which led me to several
other sites... A Google search should soon find them.
Have a good weekend!
Best
Ramesh
Re: Use of metaphors | Mike McDonald | October 29th, 2005
I came up with one contribution to Malaphor Forum myself, which I actually heard from the lips of the then-IBM chairman, Lou Gerstner, himself:
"He teed off on me like I was some kind of punching bag."
How about that for a mixed sporting metaphor?
Mike
Re: Use of metaphors | Jerry Talandis Jr. | October 29th, 2005
With all these examples of native speakers not only using metaphors a lot, but mixing and matching as they see fit, how on earth can language learners keep up? Seems that the process of learning and acquiring these sorts of phrases is a never-ending climb up a tall mountain...
:-)
Jerry
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